Just blog whatever
Posted on January 1st, 2010
80Just blog whatever to your hearts content.
Posted in Whatever Tagged with no tags
80 Comments
j/y hopeful - October 27th, 2009 at 6:50 AM
I suppose us not being adult bowlers CAN join in. I was just up studying and am taking a break so I thought I would check out tenpinwellington seeing as they are all talking about it up north here. I think this is the sort of place we can air our views without being penalised, bowling wise that is as normally we are not allowed to say anything. 1 thing does worry me about being a nz j/y squad member, if I ever get asked that is. There seems to be 1 rule for the Adults and another for the j/y. I was here at a National Stop when a couple of the j/y got a mouthful from 1 of the adults about wearing earphones because it is not allowed at training camps and is in the rules. These poor bowlers looked sheepish, took off the earphones but cussed the adult once they had turned away. WELL, I am sorry but had that been me they spoke to I would have asked this adult what right they had to tell me to take them off when the National Stop is NOT a camp has NOTHING to do with camps and is a SINGLES tournament that I personally like bowling in to see if I can beat my peers and if by wearing my earphones listening to my kind of music I can beat them I will and surely if it was a problem or "against" the rules it should have been brought to the attention of the tournament committee or the CEO of TBNZ who was present. Thanks for letting me get this off my chest as it has been stopping me from really trying to gain a place as I was brought up to know that rules are rules BUT for everyone.
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Dragonbalz - October 27th, 2009 at 5:40 PM
I symphatise with you and most of the j/y bowlers in NZ. It's a pity to waste all the talent that the country has!If only TBNZ realises that the j/y are the future of the sport of 10pin bowling, not the seniors who I believe are just there for their own personal glory. A National Sports body should be thinking ahead to the future of the sport they so 'love' and nurture,groom and financially support the ones "climbing the mountain and not the ones coming down the mountain" so to speak.
By the way, the thing about the earphones rule is ridiculous! Unless tournament rules apply in that instance, it should not be an issue unless it's a Team Championship. Every bowler has their own way of relaxing and block out distractions during tournament play and if it helps, all the better.
By the way, the thing about the earphones rule is ridiculous! Unless tournament rules apply in that instance, it should not be an issue unless it's a Team Championship. Every bowler has their own way of relaxing and block out distractions during tournament play and if it helps, all the better.
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ballswreck - October 27th, 2009 at 6:20 PM
The essence of this site is for all bowlers to have a say. It would be awesome if someone will start a tenpinauckland and we can link. Angel and Demon lol. Most jnr and youth in Akld know who I am, but not as ballswreck. Ask around. I am a cool dude. I am in the Hutt City 2001n 2002 team pics. Can't go wong with it. At this point in time I would agree with you with regards to the earpiece. Till there is a rule amendment/addition, there is nothing on TBNZ General Playing Rules v1.02 on earpiece. Rule 209 covers alcohol and smoking, Rule 513 says Code of Ethics is in place for its registered coaches and National Squad level athletics, Rule 714d says bowlers must conduct themselves in a sportsmanlike( should change it to sportspersonlike) manner at all times, this is disputable, Rule 719 says that the Tournament Committee will decide any matters, which arise and are not covered herein. For that to take effect, I reckon bowlers should be forewarned by announcement or publication that earpiece during play is disallowed before the start of any tournaments. There is a fear that coaches can transmit instruction or bowlers listening to mentoring words via earpiece. This could be seen as an unfair advantage over the opposition. If you feel that you are being harassed by the officials, Rule 837 says you can lodge a submission with the CEO, after notifying the Secretary of the Tourney. I hope this info help, mate. This site is for the relief of pain and frustration. It may cause drowsiness. If affected do not drive a vehicle or operate machinery. Avoid alcohol. Not to be given to children under 2 years of age because safety of such use has not been established. Spread the word, lmao
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Youth bowler - March 15th, 2011 at 8:38 PM
Although the adult should have gone about it better perhaps just telling the junior or youth bowler of the rule may have made the situation better, the rules are still the rules. Its not against the rules of the tournament however it was in the bowlers agreement that every bowler thats in the j/y squad signs. Therefore they are NOT allowed to wear headphones or they could be removed or other consequences from the squad. Although this is a singles tournament the purpose of the rule is that if a bowler can only focus due to headphone use, then they are completely useless in a team event. The major tournaments that the NZ j/y squad go to are team based events. Therefore whats the point of having these bowlers in the squad?
wayne - January 3rd, 2010 at 1:09 AM
All the best for 2010 to all bowlers.
Nice update to this website with the news and results pages.
What will the new year bring to our bowling world?
For myself i have two goals to aim for.
One happens later this month, the other not for a couple of years, but it starts now to get the best result i can strive for.
I would like to see the WGTN OPEN make a come back.
The old bowland champs was a worth while comp.
WCBA needs to get its act together, some new ideas/people with a different approach to do its best for its self and the WGTN bowlers.
Would be nice if the four bowl centres got together a competition.
I would really like to see more bowlers making a better effort to improve themselves, a bit of coaching and practice goes a long way.
But my biggest wish is for the bloody wind to go.
Happy New Year
Nice update to this website with the news and results pages.
What will the new year bring to our bowling world?
For myself i have two goals to aim for.
One happens later this month, the other not for a couple of years, but it starts now to get the best result i can strive for.
I would like to see the WGTN OPEN make a come back.
The old bowland champs was a worth while comp.
WCBA needs to get its act together, some new ideas/people with a different approach to do its best for its self and the WGTN bowlers.
Would be nice if the four bowl centres got together a competition.
I would really like to see more bowlers making a better effort to improve themselves, a bit of coaching and practice goes a long way.
But my biggest wish is for the bloody wind to go.
Happy New Year
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ballswreck - January 6th, 2010 at 3:53 PM
Happy New Year, bro. You got some good suggestions. If we can get someone to run it and getting the sponsors, the Wellington Open will be a fantastic idea. Best possible date is mid July or August Its about time we have an Inter Centres Challenge, or an Inter Proprietors Wellington Cup. It was quite an eye opener attending the WCBA meeting. I still think it needs a new name for a new start. Wellington bowlers are spoilt with monthly tournies, unfortunately they do not capitalise on this opportunity. They need a change of attitude. The purpose of competing is to develop your mental toughness and maintaining consistent scores or better. Other than the handful of hardcore tourney bowlers, the others are oblivious to it. What a shame. The NZ Training Squad Selection Policy January 2010 is out on TBNZ website. The Mens and Ladies Squad is the top 14 NZ Rankings as at year end 2009. Increased by 2 from last year. The Senior is top 8 instead of 10, but now there is a Super senior squad top 6 (60 years and older) The other addition is the NZ representative at international tourney are required to submit a report within 21 days of returning, see 5.0 no.19. for details. All the best wishes to the Wellington bowlers participating in the 2010 NZ Seniors Champ.
j/y hopeful - April 25th, 2010 at 8:01 AM
Judy as a junior can I please ask what the trophies were for that WCBA bought? and through you can I answer the suggestion about local ranking system. This was tried in Auckland and caused so much confusion for us bowlers with the TBNZ ranking that it was dropped. There is only room for 1 ranking system in our sport and in most sports come to that.
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ballswreck - April 25th, 2010 at 8:53 PM
Hi j/y. I have a look at the TBNZ posting with regards to the 2010 Ranking Policy for Junior Division. It is a CLASSIC. What a load of gobbly gook. I wonder who is dementia, the reader or..Would be nice if someone can come up with a better solution to this dilemma.
ballswreck - June 9th, 2010 at 9:00 PM
Does anyone knows what happened during the last weekend, 2010 TBNZ National Champs with regards to the Graded Singles Final Winner. I would like to thank the reader for bringing it to my attention, that I have made an error. Well I downloaded the Final result from TBNZ and posted it on my RESULTS page, looks like there is a late change from Jane Cameron to the eventual Winner Coco Tuason. Umm I can only guess that it has to do with the Average?!
Oilrag - February 27th, 2011 at 6:37 AM
I too am upset that we did not get Wellington Open Masters results. WHY????????????????
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ballswreck - February 27th, 2011 at 4:11 PM
Who isn't. From what i heard there was no printed result of the Masters at the end of the event. Since I wasn't there I can only rely on the result from Strike website. But it wasn't there last night and its 11am now. Still nothing. Providing uptodate result is part and parcel of running a good tourney. The response to the Wellington Open was great with bowlers from Palmy and New Plymouth. It could be a showcase in the future but it needs to be managed properly. Bowlers name are sacred. There were wrong spelling, missing surname and errors. Thats not very professional. Don't blame the bowlers, it is up to the organiser to get it right. What say you?
always loyal - February 27th, 2011 at 4:59 PM
A poorly run tournament, NO conditioning for the Open Masters, bowlers had to pay for the Masters (never have in the pasts W/Open) nothing on entry form about masters costs.
Is this Tournament worth $160 for a masters finalist ?????
NO pay out for All Events yet paid down to 5th in the Mixed doubles (which was an optional Event)
This is not the standard we have come to expect at Wellington Tournaments.
Is this Tournament worth $160 for a masters finalist ?????
NO pay out for All Events yet paid down to 5th in the Mixed doubles (which was an optional Event)
This is not the standard we have come to expect at Wellington Tournaments.
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ballswreck - February 27th, 2011 at 5:29 PM
Are you serious about the no payout to All Events. Thats incredibly stupid. If one were to do the sum from the entries, I was told that over $11000 was collected. I have no info on the breakdown to the payout for the prizegetters. I hope it is significant. My oh my, nothing for All Events eh. I just can't get over it. By the way, did they use pacer/s for the vacancy scores registered to a certain team and doubles. If no pacer is used, the bowlers on that pair of lanes would have the advantage. Does the team with the vacancy scores entitles to the winnings? So confusing. Am i surprised? Urrrrgh
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always loyal - February 27th, 2011 at 7:01 PM
No pacers were used that I was aware of. The graded ladies team with the two vacancies came second but they didn't receive any payment, the third place team got it.
waning supporter - February 27th, 2011 at 6:52 PM
I was not able to bowl this year as I have broken my bowling arm but It is all a worry. Here we are at 1pm and still no results. WHAT!!!!!!! no conditioning for the Open Masters. Just checked the entry form and always loyal is correct, no mention about masters costs. Why pay out for Mixed Doubles as this was just a fun add on cos it sure did not go towards all events and nor it should BUT, a graded bowler who bowled in the mixed doubles had their score included in All Events. This is not heresay it is included in the event results on the Strike website. I have to agree, IT IS NOT the standard we have come to expect at Wellington Tournaments nor should we accept. Ballswreck is also correct in regard to pacers/vacancy scores. This is unprecedented NOT to use pacers as it is certainly is an advantage to the bowlers. Why don't we all enter Tournaments and not bother to find other bowlers (that is what it looks like has hapened) when we know we can have less bowlers using the oil on the allocated lanes. Did ALL bowlers check their National rankings before entering their average for this weekend. Most of us do check but we also know others that do not. Were e a's checked, I doubt it. How is TBNZ going to work out ranking points when we had a mixed doubles thrown in. HOHUM. Keep up the good work with your open discussion forum.
ballswreck - February 27th, 2011 at 7:43 PM
This issue is starting to get hot. There are more. You can find it at www.tenpinwellington.co.nz Goto Readers column under Wellington Open Review. I hope that all the views expressed by readers/bowlers will be appreciated by other tourney organisers so that we bowlers can have a stressfree tourney in future. Bowling itself is stressful enough. By the way, this is a TBNZ rank tourney so do bowlers need to be a current 2011 TBNZ members. The average used was December 2010, so do it mean that 2010 TBNZ can bowl in it. Can non TBNZ bowled in this tourney? Just curious.
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Squareball - February 28th, 2011 at 3:44 PM
I was a first time bowler in the tourney and qualified for the graded masters. I was disappointed with the lack of information around the event. I was also disappointed with the assumptions and attitude of the staff that bowlers should know everything anyway. Two other bowlers I knew also thought the same. One of them had not seen on the website only that he had to pay for the masters on Sunday. He was pretty upset at not knowing and had not bought any money with him. Too embarressed he was about to leave, so I spotted him the money so he could play.
Graded Masters started late as the something had to be sorted out using the phone. I can only guess that it was the software setup for the tourney.
TBNZ Mission Statement
"To work with the industry and stakeholders to provide the foundations to
encourage participation and achievement within the sport of tenpin bowling."
I think this tournement missed the mark of the above statement and I know of one bowler who will not enter next year.
PS. Results are STILL not up on Strike website.
Graded Masters started late as the something had to be sorted out using the phone. I can only guess that it was the software setup for the tourney.
TBNZ Mission Statement
"To work with the industry and stakeholders to provide the foundations to
encourage participation and achievement within the sport of tenpin bowling."
I think this tournement missed the mark of the above statement and I know of one bowler who will not enter next year.
PS. Results are STILL not up on Strike website.
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ballswreck - February 28th, 2011 at 4:36 PM
If my memory is correct, a few years ago this tournament and the Coke High roller tourney was sponsored with $5000 from Coke towards both the tournies. There was no additional fee for those that made the Masters in the Wgtn Open. The Wgtn Open was revive this year. Other than commercial reason, I can find a logic in the Masters entry fee charge. Current TBNZ Rule 811c states that conditions under which entries are accepted cannot be changed or modified after the tournament starts. This includes entry fee charges and the rules governing the competition. Thats that. Anyway if you were to do your sum from the entries, roughly $12000 plus of entry fee was collected, just under 1200 games were bowled, the entry form says that prize payout is estimated at $5000. That leaves $7000 plus to cover lane fees. As this is a center tourney there should not be any additional cost in running the tourney. For a tourney like this with several divisions, most proprietor will work on a lower lane fee per game to boost the prize pool, whereas in solely singles tourney, they can charge a higher lane fee as the prize list is less. I hope by now you would have worked out the lane fee charged at this tourney. The next question is if the sponsorship money in added in, then the lane fee would have increased? Ummm
waning supporter - February 28th, 2011 at 4:37 PM
Still no Masters results BUT guess what? The info on cost of entering Masters has been taken off the Strike website. I think the Wellington Open Tournament organisers and supporting Association (WCBA) need to look closely at what has happened because even though only 2 days has elapse since the end of the Tournament believe me there is some bad blood out there. No conditioning before Open Masters!! What was the head Tech thinking about? I am told that there was no permission given to condition lanes as T D was 45 late arriving at the Centre. Why was the announcement in regard to NO payout for All Events made by PAST President of WCBA? Some bowlers were not afforded the courtesy of having their surname entered on squad listings or some names were spelt incorrectly and even, I am given to understand, that some bowlers were entered into a different grade than that which was on their entry form but were not told of the change and the bowlers did not know until they sighted the event result sheets.
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ballswreck - February 28th, 2011 at 6:46 PM
Should I or should I not dabble with the Dead. I will let it go this time. Enough excitement for the week. The jubilations and the hurt is too much for an ole man like me. I am watching though.
always loyal - February 28th, 2011 at 5:34 PM
Just to let you know the Head Tech doesn't set the Tournament schedule, it is the Tournament director, the techs just do as the are told. Harry the Head Tech does a fantastic job. Tuesday 12.30pm still no Masters results.
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ballswreck - February 28th, 2011 at 6:15 PM
Dion called and said that he is endeavouring to get the result out as soon as possible today. Please be patient as he is recovering from his sickness during the weekend. He just got back to work today. It is unfortunate that frustrations happened during Sunday as Dion was unavailable. I believe that everyone would have read the views from both sides and draw their own conclusion. Lets hope that everyone will learn from this. Life goes on. Just remember that this site is an avenue for you to have your say. Other than profanity, offensive language, racism and hatred, your opinion will not be suppressed by me. Both this websites are run solely by me, hence if you can help out by whatever means let me know.
Squareball - February 28th, 2011 at 6:09 PM
For those that want to have another look over the tournament details you can still view them at
http://www.tbnz.co.nz/results/2011/wellington_open/WellingtonOpen2011-EntryForm.htm
Be quick though as I guess they will disappear from here too!
http://www.tbnz.co.nz/results/2011/wellington_open/WellingtonOpen2011-EntryForm.htm
Be quick though as I guess they will disappear from here too!
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ballswreck - February 28th, 2011 at 6:42 PM
Got it. Such solidarity is unheard of. In our own little ways a little bit of this and that goes a long way. Much appreciated. As always I am in the thick of things. Oh well you only live once. What's the heck!
PocketSplit - February 28th, 2011 at 6:54 PM
I appreciate Dion has not been well, however that does not excuse the mulitple issues noted throughout the entry form (I can still enter today - the entries don't close until end of March!), No all events payout and lack of prize information / lack of thought for the other prizes and extremely poor communication in regards to the extra payment for finalists...
All these issues should have been resolved well ahead of the weekend.
Who else was on the Tournament Committee? If Dion was sick, these people should be able to step up and fill the gaps created for the "on the day" stuff - which I believe mostly happened - e.g. Julie performing the prizegiving. I congratulate the "on the day" staff for dealing as best as they could with the issues as they cropped up.
The issues were more in the planning, communication and thought processes behind the event - clearly showing a lack of due care and attention to the integrity of the sport and event.
Unfortunately, this rests squarely with Dion as Tournament Director.
Porirua used to be the Mecca for New Zealand Tournament Bowlers....it certainly doesn't hold true (for me at least) anymore.....
Very disappointing.....
All these issues should have been resolved well ahead of the weekend.
Who else was on the Tournament Committee? If Dion was sick, these people should be able to step up and fill the gaps created for the "on the day" stuff - which I believe mostly happened - e.g. Julie performing the prizegiving. I congratulate the "on the day" staff for dealing as best as they could with the issues as they cropped up.
The issues were more in the planning, communication and thought processes behind the event - clearly showing a lack of due care and attention to the integrity of the sport and event.
Unfortunately, this rests squarely with Dion as Tournament Director.
Porirua used to be the Mecca for New Zealand Tournament Bowlers....it certainly doesn't hold true (for me at least) anymore.....
Very disappointing.....
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luv tenpin - February 28th, 2011 at 7:54 PM
SPOT ON Pocketsplit and while we are all sorry Dion was sick where were the other tournament committee. If Julie was one why did she not take charge and get on with it. Was it a question of doing only what we have to or are paid to do???? Where was the Loyalty to Dion from staff that should have stepped up. Harsh, maybe, but life. Have to agree with always loyal, Harry is a damn good tech but again sounds as though he is not allowed to take action on any given situation. Do we detect a proprietors not caring about "real' bowlers and only wanting public to enjoy their establishments because they bring in the revenue. As an aside, has anyone heard how Marion Gunn is please? We here up the line have not heard anything for a week or so.
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Seventendream - February 28th, 2011 at 8:30 PM
Other bowlers have said it but I will also. While I am sorry Dion was sick there can be NO excuses for what happened as there are ALWAYS plenty of bowlers (not actually bowling on the day) who are willing to help But a lot of the problems were before the bowling started they just got worse as the weekend went on. Shame on you T C for charging well deserved bowlers to enter a Masters. Shame on you T C for allowing Mixed Doubles scores to be used for All Events. Both these points contravened the rules. "THE BUCK STOPS HERE PEOPLE"
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ballswreck - February 28th, 2011 at 8:49 PM
If you were to goto www.tenpinwellington .co.nz click on tourney information, Danny Jamieson has given a response to most bowlers query as recorded in the Reader's column of this site. My response is in the Reader's column highlighted. Have a read.
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ballswreck - February 28th, 2011 at 9:05 PM
Marion Gunn is on therapy. She is not feeling too well last week. I wish her a quick recovery. I have always valued her guts to voice an opinion. She got the gift of the gap, while I got the keyboard. If only we could join force. We will be a formidable duo. Unfortunately this is not to be. She's too busy with tenpin bowling in general. She can live on tenpin alone. So dedicated to the sport. My salute comrade.
Danny Jamieson - March 1st, 2011 at 2:25 AM
Who are you all? As I mentioned in my email to Boyce earlier today, communicate to people face to face and not under the anonymity of a website forum. How are these issues that seem to have caused such a problem with some going to be sorted if "we" do not know who you are.
I understand Ballswreck is Boyce but who are the rest? I could guess but would hate to get it wrong. Have the "balls" to out yourself and let us see whether we can make some progress because the type of crap I am reading above serves non-one and especially the Wellington tenpin community any good. At least I have the guts to publish my email address so that people can correspond me with directly.
I understand Ballswreck is Boyce but who are the rest? I could guess but would hate to get it wrong. Have the "balls" to out yourself and let us see whether we can make some progress because the type of crap I am reading above serves non-one and especially the Wellington tenpin community any good. At least I have the guts to publish my email address so that people can correspond me with directly.
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InThePocketX - March 1st, 2011 at 3:14 PM
It looks like this is getting very personal. I've been reading the blogs and your replies and it seems that it's quite contradictory in some instances. You've mentioned that you have been out of the Wellington bowling administration scene for over 5 years and yet the statement 'How are these issues that seem to have caused such a problem with some going to be sorted if "we" do not know who you are'. So you are still very much 'involved'.
How do you suggest it be solved if you've stated clearly in your response that it is the Tournament Director's decision and it is his right! So basically there is no way it can be solved if that is the case. I believe in my opinion that a TBNZ sanctioned tournament should be run with accordance to TBNZ tournament rules. Your answer is that as long as the lanes are sanctioned, it's a sanctioned tournament. I do not believe that to be the case. Why would a centre apply to sanction a tournament if their lanes are already sanctioned? Doesn't make sense to me. Why do the centres a sanction number for the tournament?
I also believe that if a centre does not put 100% into running a tournament properly, the centre should not have the tournament at all. That is not supporting the bowlers. Stick to the business end and the profits. If a centre wants to have a tournament, the business part of it should not come into the picture.
You mentioned that you spoke to Dion on the morning of the Masters with regards to the payment and yet he could have waived the payments but didn't. End of story.
I don't see the point of anonymity or names revealed will make a difference. This is an open forum and as such people can write whatever they want. Remember it is their personal opinion and so were your response, and as a personal response as you've stated, it seems that you were answering on behalf of the Tournament Director and the centre!
How do you suggest it be solved if you've stated clearly in your response that it is the Tournament Director's decision and it is his right! So basically there is no way it can be solved if that is the case. I believe in my opinion that a TBNZ sanctioned tournament should be run with accordance to TBNZ tournament rules. Your answer is that as long as the lanes are sanctioned, it's a sanctioned tournament. I do not believe that to be the case. Why would a centre apply to sanction a tournament if their lanes are already sanctioned? Doesn't make sense to me. Why do the centres a sanction number for the tournament?
I also believe that if a centre does not put 100% into running a tournament properly, the centre should not have the tournament at all. That is not supporting the bowlers. Stick to the business end and the profits. If a centre wants to have a tournament, the business part of it should not come into the picture.
You mentioned that you spoke to Dion on the morning of the Masters with regards to the payment and yet he could have waived the payments but didn't. End of story.
I don't see the point of anonymity or names revealed will make a difference. This is an open forum and as such people can write whatever they want. Remember it is their personal opinion and so were your response, and as a personal response as you've stated, it seems that you were answering on behalf of the Tournament Director and the centre!
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Danny Jamieson - March 1st, 2011 at 6:06 PM
I did respond to your post but somehow it has been lost (no I am not pointing the finger that it has been deliberately lost. Internet connection issue I believe). i will do so again tomorrow as I have run out of time today.
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Danny Jamieson - March 2nd, 2011 at 10:45 PM
Righto, let’s try that again. Firstly, who are you? If you would like to reveal yourself, please feel free to do so – either to my email address or here. I like to know whether I am speaking to friend, foe or neutral.
In answer to your queries and / or statements:
Yep, it has got personal but way before I go involved. What I am trying to do is stop it getting personal again, find the root causes of the issues and try and find a way forward. How much success I’ll have, I am not sure but I will give it a go.
By “we” I mean the “royal we”, i.e., you, me and anybody else who is interested. I am involved only because I am interested in what goes on with Wellington Bowling. I talk, try to listen and if there are issues, try to resolve them as best as I can. Sometimes I have success, sometimes I don’t. Just because I stopped my involvement in the WCBA several years back, does not mean I have stopped taking an active part in the various discussions that occur. Further, I seem to have people ask me about such things from time to time and I am more than happy to oblige with an opinion – something that those of you who know me well are well aware of.
The only tournaments TBNZ takes an active involvement in are the respective Nationals and National Teams Champs for Juniors / Youth / Adult and Senior. These tournaments are run by TBNZ. The NBTs and other sanctioned tournaments are run by and the responsibility of the hosting centre. I am not sure what right of protest etc is available via TBNZ and your best bet to find out is to contact the Tournament Manager who is Pete Richardson. Regarding sanctioning itself, there are two items of interest – sanctioning the lanes (i.e., the lanes / pins / equipment are of an acceptable standard) and sanctioning the tournament (i.e., the tournament will be run according to accepted principles and that honours games / series will be recognised and ranking points will be available). Before anybody screams “but the Wellington Open wasn’t run in this way!” – I accept there were shortcomings and I’ll deal with the fallout of that later. The intent of this passage is to explain sanctioning and its purpose.
I believe that all centres put 100% into running a tournament. Some just do it better than others. Every tournament I have ever been too has had issues – some you can fix quite readily, others require more work. Regarding commercial motives, a weekend tournament is a massive drain on the finances of a centre as lanes are not available for casual public play. On a Sunday in particular, all centres would want the lanes available as early as possible hence why I believe a lane condition was not done between the masters. Make sense to me but as a bowler I can see why it was unpopular. Further, I think it completely unwarranted to question, in particular, Strike Porirua’s commitment to running a tournament. I suggest you visit their tournament calendar page to see what I mean.
If you don’t believe me, talk to Tenpin Kapiti as to how much the NBT a week or two back cost them in free play against the tournament game rate.
Regarding the masters cost, there was nothing that could be done on the morning of the masters. While I agree that the centre had every right to charge for the masters, I objected to the fact that it was not on the entry form. This is what I spoke to Dion about. Also, all bowlers have choice. I did not see anyone decide NOT to bowl the masters because of the cost. I did have one bowler email me on Saturday night about the cost of the masters but even they decided to bowl in it. All bowlers had the choice.
I will also categorically state that I am not speaking on behalf of the centre nor the tournament director. I am speaking as a concerned bowler because of some of the stuff that has been written here. I believe that writing insulting comment in a public forum such as this anonymously is spineless and lacks integrity.
In answer to your queries and / or statements:
Yep, it has got personal but way before I go involved. What I am trying to do is stop it getting personal again, find the root causes of the issues and try and find a way forward. How much success I’ll have, I am not sure but I will give it a go.
By “we” I mean the “royal we”, i.e., you, me and anybody else who is interested. I am involved only because I am interested in what goes on with Wellington Bowling. I talk, try to listen and if there are issues, try to resolve them as best as I can. Sometimes I have success, sometimes I don’t. Just because I stopped my involvement in the WCBA several years back, does not mean I have stopped taking an active part in the various discussions that occur. Further, I seem to have people ask me about such things from time to time and I am more than happy to oblige with an opinion – something that those of you who know me well are well aware of.
The only tournaments TBNZ takes an active involvement in are the respective Nationals and National Teams Champs for Juniors / Youth / Adult and Senior. These tournaments are run by TBNZ. The NBTs and other sanctioned tournaments are run by and the responsibility of the hosting centre. I am not sure what right of protest etc is available via TBNZ and your best bet to find out is to contact the Tournament Manager who is Pete Richardson. Regarding sanctioning itself, there are two items of interest – sanctioning the lanes (i.e., the lanes / pins / equipment are of an acceptable standard) and sanctioning the tournament (i.e., the tournament will be run according to accepted principles and that honours games / series will be recognised and ranking points will be available). Before anybody screams “but the Wellington Open wasn’t run in this way!” – I accept there were shortcomings and I’ll deal with the fallout of that later. The intent of this passage is to explain sanctioning and its purpose.
I believe that all centres put 100% into running a tournament. Some just do it better than others. Every tournament I have ever been too has had issues – some you can fix quite readily, others require more work. Regarding commercial motives, a weekend tournament is a massive drain on the finances of a centre as lanes are not available for casual public play. On a Sunday in particular, all centres would want the lanes available as early as possible hence why I believe a lane condition was not done between the masters. Make sense to me but as a bowler I can see why it was unpopular. Further, I think it completely unwarranted to question, in particular, Strike Porirua’s commitment to running a tournament. I suggest you visit their tournament calendar page to see what I mean.
If you don’t believe me, talk to Tenpin Kapiti as to how much the NBT a week or two back cost them in free play against the tournament game rate.
Regarding the masters cost, there was nothing that could be done on the morning of the masters. While I agree that the centre had every right to charge for the masters, I objected to the fact that it was not on the entry form. This is what I spoke to Dion about. Also, all bowlers have choice. I did not see anyone decide NOT to bowl the masters because of the cost. I did have one bowler email me on Saturday night about the cost of the masters but even they decided to bowl in it. All bowlers had the choice.
I will also categorically state that I am not speaking on behalf of the centre nor the tournament director. I am speaking as a concerned bowler because of some of the stuff that has been written here. I believe that writing insulting comment in a public forum such as this anonymously is spineless and lacks integrity.
Danny Jamieson - March 1st, 2011 at 2:56 AM
Email address does not show when you submit a comment, so here it is....danny@jamiesons.co.nz. Are others prepared to follow or are who all still going to keep hiding?
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opinionated bowler - March 1st, 2011 at 4:12 AM
This is the type of forum where people CAN express there opinions without being ganged up on by the group of people running wellington bowling.
Does it matter if there is a name to it? What difference does it make who said it?
It is either got some truth or not - you chose. It's just an opinion.
Does it matter if there is a name to it? What difference does it make who said it?
It is either got some truth or not - you chose. It's just an opinion.
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Danny Jamieson - March 1st, 2011 at 12:55 PM
Yes I agree. However, it serves no purpose and in fact is quite spineless if you chip away anonymously on the sides at those who do care and do get involved in trying to organise and progress Wellington Bowling.
So does it matter? I believe yes it does. How are the things that people believe are broken supposed to be fixed if the powers that be don't know who they are talking too?
I am interested in your comment "ganged up on by the group of people running Wellington bowling". Who are these people? Am I one of them? It would be strange if I was as I have not been involved in bowling administration in Wellington for over five years. I participate in discussions about Wellington Bowling but the difference is I do it openly and transparently - in complete contradiction to this forum.
Further, it may just be an opinion - but it is a destructive one. I also not that comments to this forum are moderated so does that mean we only hear opinions that the moderator (who I presume is Boyce) wants us to hear?
Lastly, if you do have concerns, by all means express them but do it openly and transparently. Own your opinion and be part of the solution and not the problem.
So does it matter? I believe yes it does. How are the things that people believe are broken supposed to be fixed if the powers that be don't know who they are talking too?
I am interested in your comment "ganged up on by the group of people running Wellington bowling". Who are these people? Am I one of them? It would be strange if I was as I have not been involved in bowling administration in Wellington for over five years. I participate in discussions about Wellington Bowling but the difference is I do it openly and transparently - in complete contradiction to this forum.
Further, it may just be an opinion - but it is a destructive one. I also not that comments to this forum are moderated so does that mean we only hear opinions that the moderator (who I presume is Boyce) wants us to hear?
Lastly, if you do have concerns, by all means express them but do it openly and transparently. Own your opinion and be part of the solution and not the problem.
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ballswreck - March 1st, 2011 at 2:30 PM
You are barking up the wrong tree. Are you trying the bait and switch tactics cos the response you wrote was more of an emotional reply rather than a logical one. I still respect you for writing it. But you are hitting below the belt on this blog. Need I say more? There is a saying, "Leave the whimping dog alone" The readers will judge.
Danny Jamieson - March 1st, 2011 at 2:46 PM
Interesting thoughts. Regarding my comments on you moderating the posts? So, are you telling me you publish all posts? If that is the case - great.
Regarding "hitting below the belt"...Boyce, I suggest you read some of the comments above if you want to see "low blows". At least if I have an issue with someone / something, I approach them directly and not throw stones from afar.
This is not an emotional reply, it is actually quite reasoned. I am known as a blunt individual - which some can deal with but others not - as is their right. If I said what I really wanted to say, you wouldn't be able to publish it.
Saying that, I will work with whoever. I just want this crap to stop because it is doing no-one any good. Wellington used to be known as the most cohesive, organised bowling in NZ and now that is far from the case. I just want to get back to that and unfortunately forums such as this are not helping.
Again I say, if you or any reader has an issue then say so. However, grow some backbone and don't hide behind a pseudonym of an anonymous forum such as this because it will not help.
Regarding "hitting below the belt"...Boyce, I suggest you read some of the comments above if you want to see "low blows". At least if I have an issue with someone / something, I approach them directly and not throw stones from afar.
This is not an emotional reply, it is actually quite reasoned. I am known as a blunt individual - which some can deal with but others not - as is their right. If I said what I really wanted to say, you wouldn't be able to publish it.
Saying that, I will work with whoever. I just want this crap to stop because it is doing no-one any good. Wellington used to be known as the most cohesive, organised bowling in NZ and now that is far from the case. I just want to get back to that and unfortunately forums such as this are not helping.
Again I say, if you or any reader has an issue then say so. However, grow some backbone and don't hide behind a pseudonym of an anonymous forum such as this because it will not help.
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ballswreck - March 1st, 2011 at 3:28 PM
I have no time for such amateur dramatics. I hold nothing against you. If I wanted to, I could cos my network could easily do a profile of you and your past. I knew. Now does that sound like an accusation. This is the same remark you make about me moderating the blogs. I swear in God's name and this is not blasphemy and if you are an Atheist, I swear in the Queen's name and if that is not good enough for you, I swear on my father's grave that till today I have not moderate or block any posting made. This is getting personal Mr. Jamieson. You have crossed the boundary. Now I demand an apology from you. To tell the Wellington bowling fraternity of your foolish behaviour. All this time I was trying to save your pride. So sad. A missed opportunity. Wellington bowlers unite. I am furious.
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Danny Jamieson - March 1st, 2011 at 3:48 PM
Mr Wong, since you have decided to become formal.
You are furious...well you can join a very long line. Some of the comments above have created an equal amount of fury in a number of people whom I respect and count as friends hence why we are having this debate.
I know I have a track record and please feel free to disclose it if you see fit as I have nothing to hide. However, I would suggest that it will serve no purpose.
I was not accusing you at all. I was simply pointing out that this blog is moderated - it says so when you hit the "Submit" button on the comments form. I was just checking that you don't moderate and you have confirmed you don't so that is great - as I mentioned in my previous post. So now I know where I stand.
Now it brings us to another point why forums such as this are dangerous. You have misinterpreted my written word as a personal attack on yourself and that was not the case. This is why for debates such as this, they are better done face to face which is why I have added my name to all my posts and people can readily find my contact details. I cannot do the same with other submitters.
Can you see where I am coming from? It is not about stifling debate...it is about ensuring that everyone is heard, that the criticism is constructive rather than destructive and that is the issue I have with this particular forum. It is great that it has provided a voice however I fail to understand why those that feel aggrieved do not feel as though they can talk to somebody, be it a centre manager, proprietor, WCBA Exec, TBNZ Exec or similar.
You are furious...well you can join a very long line. Some of the comments above have created an equal amount of fury in a number of people whom I respect and count as friends hence why we are having this debate.
I know I have a track record and please feel free to disclose it if you see fit as I have nothing to hide. However, I would suggest that it will serve no purpose.
I was not accusing you at all. I was simply pointing out that this blog is moderated - it says so when you hit the "Submit" button on the comments form. I was just checking that you don't moderate and you have confirmed you don't so that is great - as I mentioned in my previous post. So now I know where I stand.
Now it brings us to another point why forums such as this are dangerous. You have misinterpreted my written word as a personal attack on yourself and that was not the case. This is why for debates such as this, they are better done face to face which is why I have added my name to all my posts and people can readily find my contact details. I cannot do the same with other submitters.
Can you see where I am coming from? It is not about stifling debate...it is about ensuring that everyone is heard, that the criticism is constructive rather than destructive and that is the issue I have with this particular forum. It is great that it has provided a voice however I fail to understand why those that feel aggrieved do not feel as though they can talk to somebody, be it a centre manager, proprietor, WCBA Exec, TBNZ Exec or similar.
Opinionated Bowler - March 1st, 2011 at 4:56 PM
Phew....slight change of subject needed I believe before this comes to blows......
TBNZ exists to moderate and maintain the standards of the sport, so therefore any TBNZ sanctioned event should be played under their accepted governing rules.
The comments above show players BELIEVE it was not.
The tournament committee become representatives of TBNZ when running a tournament to ensure these standards are maintined.
Given the issues (perceived or real) highlighted with the Open as described above is it now time for TBNZ to become involved and at least investigate these comments? If standards are found to have been not maintained could/should a penalty be imposed upon the centre? The Committee? Someone else? It seems as if the bowlers have paid a price for a poorly run event (in the opinions expressed above).....What options are there available for redress/compensation?
It seems very little given the frustrations and comments detailed above......
And for a multi-million dollar business to cause this sort of grief with the issues raised amongst it's customers.....I would have expected something to try and resolve these issues rather than ignore them....
This is not aimed at anyone (i.e. Danny/Boyce)- but simply asks a question of where to from here?
Options? Ideas? As Danny has said...constructive is better as I believe we all know what the issues are now....
TBNZ exists to moderate and maintain the standards of the sport, so therefore any TBNZ sanctioned event should be played under their accepted governing rules.
The comments above show players BELIEVE it was not.
The tournament committee become representatives of TBNZ when running a tournament to ensure these standards are maintined.
Given the issues (perceived or real) highlighted with the Open as described above is it now time for TBNZ to become involved and at least investigate these comments? If standards are found to have been not maintained could/should a penalty be imposed upon the centre? The Committee? Someone else? It seems as if the bowlers have paid a price for a poorly run event (in the opinions expressed above).....What options are there available for redress/compensation?
It seems very little given the frustrations and comments detailed above......
And for a multi-million dollar business to cause this sort of grief with the issues raised amongst it's customers.....I would have expected something to try and resolve these issues rather than ignore them....
This is not aimed at anyone (i.e. Danny/Boyce)- but simply asks a question of where to from here?
Options? Ideas? As Danny has said...constructive is better as I believe we all know what the issues are now....
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Danny Jamieson - March 3rd, 2011 at 12:54 AM
Yep, perception is everything. I have no objection at all with people airing their views - I take exception to the way some do it. I suggest we do not even go there with regards to penalties for the centre etc. It is just unrealistic and the centre (in fact all centres) do enough for the bowlers already. Some seem to forget that. We would be a much poorer region if the centres didn't run any tournaments or had no interest in competitive play and we run the risk of doing that if a witch hunt results from any tournament that is played. Because a witch hunt is exactly what the above is. My view again and others will disagree I am sure.
I will have a think overnight and try and formulate a way forward. It may get support and it may not as it is just my view, but at least it will provide something to discuss. I will put my ideas forward and let us see where it takes us.
I will have a think overnight and try and formulate a way forward. It may get support and it may not as it is just my view, but at least it will provide something to discuss. I will put my ideas forward and let us see where it takes us.
headpin - March 1st, 2011 at 7:40 PM
The tournament was run poorly and a lot of bolwers are unhappy. we don't all have to voice our opinions with any body face to face, this website gives a chance to express how we feel. (well done Tenpin Wellington)
Not everyone is as vocal as others, sometimes this is the only way to be heard over the domineering voices like Dannys.
I want to talk about loyalty, the staff should be loyal to the centre and bowlers as there have many managers in Porirua. Loyalty like trust is earned.
If you don't like this website, SIMPLE don't view it.
Once again it is about people choices.
Not everyone is as vocal as others, sometimes this is the only way to be heard over the domineering voices like Dannys.
I want to talk about loyalty, the staff should be loyal to the centre and bowlers as there have many managers in Porirua. Loyalty like trust is earned.
If you don't like this website, SIMPLE don't view it.
Once again it is about people choices.
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Danny Jamieson - March 3rd, 2011 at 1:28 AM
Interesting. So by taking an interest and getting involved, I am domineering. I suggest that I just have more conviction in my opinions than others and stand by them. Some people listen and some people don't, as is their choice.
Further, there are other prominent personalities in Wellington Tenpin. Are they domineering as well?
With regards to not viewing this website, in my opinion, it is partially responsible for the basket case that is Wellington Tenpin currently so that is not going to happen. As a result, I am challenging it and hope to be part of making some change. I think I understand what Boyce has tried to achieve with this site but feel it has missed its mark. Again, my opinion.
You are right...I do have a choice. Currently, that choice is to challenge what is written here as others are challenging me. I am still disappointed that others do it anonymously but I can't do anything about that. I can though clarify, explain and challenge which is what I am doing.
Further, there are other prominent personalities in Wellington Tenpin. Are they domineering as well?
With regards to not viewing this website, in my opinion, it is partially responsible for the basket case that is Wellington Tenpin currently so that is not going to happen. As a result, I am challenging it and hope to be part of making some change. I think I understand what Boyce has tried to achieve with this site but feel it has missed its mark. Again, my opinion.
You are right...I do have a choice. Currently, that choice is to challenge what is written here as others are challenging me. I am still disappointed that others do it anonymously but I can't do anything about that. I can though clarify, explain and challenge which is what I am doing.
Jane - March 2nd, 2011 at 1:46 AM
At a time of national mourning and destruction in Christchuch it saddens me that there is worry about how a recent tournament is run????? There are way more important things to worry about right now and it is insensitive. Life's to short for being furious over something that in the " big picture" is not really a life or death issue. Please start to smile again soon :) its nicer to hear about the good things we have going on in the Wellington Region. Congrats to some great scores in the Wellington Open. A 300 game from Ken and a great singles series from Allan Heald. YAY!!
headpin - March 2nd, 2011 at 2:36 AM
The recent Wellington Open Tournament takes nothing away from the tragedy of CHCH and is a completely seperate issue. Not sure what the point of your comment is Jane. YAY for Ken and Allan and Greg and Stephaine and Angela etc... these things don't change that the Wellington Open was a joke!
Ken Powe - March 2nd, 2011 at 3:43 AM
I am disgusted at the whinging on this blog. Yes I do believe that there where somethings that let down the tournament but agree with Danny that it is up to the tournament director to interpret the rules. It was only a tier 3 tournament. I was there most of the weekend and no one approached me with any concerns at all! To complain at this late stage about a miss-spelt name, come on are you real. If it was pointed out to me at the time I would have corrected it straight away.I am sure Dion would appreciate an email or call if there are any problems rather than a bitchfest on an anonymous blog. Come on people stand up for your rights at the right time not the "too late to make a difference but piss people of" time.
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opinionated Bowler - March 2nd, 2011 at 4:31 AM
Ken - The comment "only a tier 3 tournament" implies the time and effort bowlers put into the tournament should not be as much..... Do the playing rules and minimum expected standards change depending on the tier? Why?
Does that make your 300 game any less significant? Does it no longer count? Where is the line drawn....please explain as I don't understand...
As soon as an event is sanctioned - it is not acceptable for the tournament director to "interpret" the rules...They have been accepted by the TBNZ and once entries have been started, accepted by the bowlers themselves. full stop.
This "only tier 3 tournament" cost many bowlers a lot of money! More so than many tier 2 or even tier 1 tournaments.....
As I have stated above, for a multi-million dollar business to cause this sort of reaction within its customers - I would have expected something from them, even just to show they care about there customers....
Still waiting...........
.........................................
.........................................
4 days later..... nothing.
But that's just one bowlers opinion.
Does that make your 300 game any less significant? Does it no longer count? Where is the line drawn....please explain as I don't understand...
As soon as an event is sanctioned - it is not acceptable for the tournament director to "interpret" the rules...They have been accepted by the TBNZ and once entries have been started, accepted by the bowlers themselves. full stop.
This "only tier 3 tournament" cost many bowlers a lot of money! More so than many tier 2 or even tier 1 tournaments.....
As I have stated above, for a multi-million dollar business to cause this sort of reaction within its customers - I would have expected something from them, even just to show they care about there customers....
Still waiting...........
.........................................
.........................................
4 days later..... nothing.
But that's just one bowlers opinion.
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Danny Jamieson - March 3rd, 2011 at 12:39 AM
Of course Tier 3 tournaments count. However, as I have said previously, the rules are more relaxed. As I mentioned earlier, TBNZ has no involvement in Tier 2 or 3 tournaments. The challenge now is to work with the centre to ensure future tournaments are run according to expectations and learn from what has happened.
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Opinionated Bowler - March 3rd, 2011 at 3:30 AM
How can an event be sanctioned, ranked and played under internationally standardized rules, if TBNZ has no involvement in tier 2 or 3 tournaments?
Does that make the sanctioning worthless if only tier 1 events are forced to maintain world class rules?
Maybe I missed something - I am not being sarcastic, or prompting an argument, but genuinely interested on where the line in the sand is?
Does that make the sanctioning worthless if only tier 1 events are forced to maintain world class rules?
Maybe I missed something - I am not being sarcastic, or prompting an argument, but genuinely interested on where the line in the sand is?
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Danny Jamieson - March 3rd, 2011 at 4:16 AM
Fair question. Tournaments are grouped in order of "importance" - the larger tournaments like Nationals and NTC are Grade 1s, NBTs are Grade 2 and all other ranked events Grade 3. Importance is the wrong word here but it serves the purpose. Note the change in word from Tier to Grade as I have just checked the terminology on the TBNZ website here:
http://www.tbnz.co.nz/results/Rankings/2010 Rankings Policy.pdf
The document explains the grades but essentially grading is based on entering numbers, and the lower the grade, the higher the number of ranking points gained. To further clarify, the National Teams Champs are sanctioned but no ranking points are offered. This means that merit games (298, 299 and 300) games will be recognised when bowled in this tournament. Not sure about series though...a question I might ask at some point.
As previously mentioned, Grade 1 tournaments are run and administered by TBNZ, Grades 2
http://www.tbnz.co.nz/results/Rankings/2010 Rankings Policy.pdf
The document explains the grades but essentially grading is based on entering numbers, and the lower the grade, the higher the number of ranking points gained. To further clarify, the National Teams Champs are sanctioned but no ranking points are offered. This means that merit games (298, 299 and 300) games will be recognised when bowled in this tournament. Not sure about series though...a question I might ask at some point.
As previously mentioned, Grade 1 tournaments are run and administered by TBNZ, Grades 2
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Danny Jamieson - March 3rd, 2011 at 2:55 PM
The end of this comment seemed to be missed (used an ampersand in the text which probably caused a problem) so here is the rest of it.
As previously mentioned, Grade 1 tournaments are run and administered by TBNZ, Grades 2 and 3 by the centre running them, except for some help (e.g., scoring). NBTs have a standard set of rules but Grade 3s can vary from tourney to tourney (e.g., are the rules for the Canty Open the same as Otago Open. I don't know but suspect they probably are 95% the same with the other 5% being local variance).
All sanctioned tournaments are required to adhere to a set of rules, and I know there were issues at the Wgtn Open. These rules are also not necessarily an international standard but because TBNZ is a member of WTBA - ABF - FIQ (the internationally recognised confederations), then the rules will be very similar.
Please don't ask me what happens if the rules "are not applied correctly" because I do not know. What I do know is that if there were / are issues at a particular tournament, then I would much rather work with the centre and / or tournament director to fix them, or at least the issues do not occur again.
I have had discussions with TBNZ personally in the past about the possibility of having a TBNZ rep responsible for every NBT in particular as I and a number of others got burnt with some issues at an NBT tournament last year. After a discussion, it was deemed too expensive and logistically difficult to put together as this person would also not be able to bowl, in order to be strictly correct.
I hope that helps.
As previously mentioned, Grade 1 tournaments are run and administered by TBNZ, Grades 2 and 3 by the centre running them, except for some help (e.g., scoring). NBTs have a standard set of rules but Grade 3s can vary from tourney to tourney (e.g., are the rules for the Canty Open the same as Otago Open. I don't know but suspect they probably are 95% the same with the other 5% being local variance).
All sanctioned tournaments are required to adhere to a set of rules, and I know there were issues at the Wgtn Open. These rules are also not necessarily an international standard but because TBNZ is a member of WTBA - ABF - FIQ (the internationally recognised confederations), then the rules will be very similar.
Please don't ask me what happens if the rules "are not applied correctly" because I do not know. What I do know is that if there were / are issues at a particular tournament, then I would much rather work with the centre and / or tournament director to fix them, or at least the issues do not occur again.
I have had discussions with TBNZ personally in the past about the possibility of having a TBNZ rep responsible for every NBT in particular as I and a number of others got burnt with some issues at an NBT tournament last year. After a discussion, it was deemed too expensive and logistically difficult to put together as this person would also not be able to bowl, in order to be strictly correct.
I hope that helps.
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opinionated Bowler - March 3rd, 2011 at 6:13 PM
Thanks Danny - but I think that highlights the issue exactly.
A number of bowlers got burned (as you say), and are looking for answers (whether this is the correct forum is debatable and for another time) - it seems you have had the same experience at a different tournament and tried to follow it up with TBNZ, with no real help.
This points out the real flaw in the system.
It is a threeway trust between TBNZ >Centre Manager/Tournament Director > Bowlers....When one of those partners let the others down, there is little/nothing that can actually be achieved - when there should be repercussions other wise why have the standards in the first place?
I don't know what they are and will leave that up to the powers that be to work through....
Perhaps for any Sanctioned event the entry fees are processed by TBNZ, when the event is finished, the money is released by TBNZ to the centre. If there are issues, TBNZ then has some bite to ensure the centres do maintain standards.....
Or an independant local is chosen to "overview" the event and ensure TBNZ standards are maintained. Someone not employed by the centre so as to avoid any conflict of interest.
To progress this discussion forward...what are some of the other options to PREVENT this situation of bowlers moaning after the event...
Just one bowlers opinion.......
A number of bowlers got burned (as you say), and are looking for answers (whether this is the correct forum is debatable and for another time) - it seems you have had the same experience at a different tournament and tried to follow it up with TBNZ, with no real help.
This points out the real flaw in the system.
It is a threeway trust between TBNZ >Centre Manager/Tournament Director > Bowlers....When one of those partners let the others down, there is little/nothing that can actually be achieved - when there should be repercussions other wise why have the standards in the first place?
I don't know what they are and will leave that up to the powers that be to work through....
Perhaps for any Sanctioned event the entry fees are processed by TBNZ, when the event is finished, the money is released by TBNZ to the centre. If there are issues, TBNZ then has some bite to ensure the centres do maintain standards.....
Or an independant local is chosen to "overview" the event and ensure TBNZ standards are maintained. Someone not employed by the centre so as to avoid any conflict of interest.
To progress this discussion forward...what are some of the other options to PREVENT this situation of bowlers moaning after the event...
Just one bowlers opinion.......
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SpareMe10 - March 3rd, 2011 at 7:56 PM
I would suggest that all bowlers read the flyers and pay attention to the rules and format of the tournament. As Danny stated, everyone has a choice whether to take part or not. The onus is usually on the buyer or in this case the participants to make sure they are satisfied with the terms and conditions of the product or service and in this case the tournament itself and they have the option to accept it or to question the terms with the organisers. However in saying that, the organisers have the responsibilities to ensure that they follow the rules as close to as possible to whatever the rules are dictated by the governing body. It is important that one rule applies to all. There is no such thing as the T D's decision and it is his/her right to do so even if it contravenes the standard rules of a sanctioned tournament.
I think it's time to move on and I hope everyone's learned something from all of these.
By the way, I see some very nasty attacks on the moderator of the site, which I think is a shame.. 'shoot the messenger?' "The bearer of bad news"
Like it or not, there's no smoke without fire and we have to listen to what is being said to move forward or nothing is going to change.
It has been an interesting exchange but hey, this is a way to let off some steam and it may release some pent up tension under Wellington and the tremors would stop!
I think it's time to move on and I hope everyone's learned something from all of these.
By the way, I see some very nasty attacks on the moderator of the site, which I think is a shame.. 'shoot the messenger?' "The bearer of bad news"
Like it or not, there's no smoke without fire and we have to listen to what is being said to move forward or nothing is going to change.
It has been an interesting exchange but hey, this is a way to let off some steam and it may release some pent up tension under Wellington and the tremors would stop!
Headache - March 2nd, 2011 at 3:47 AM
To head pin .The point of the comment was that we should be putting our effort into helping and thinking about our fellow New Zealanders, not crying about how a tournament was run. Why cant people say who they are. I think its because that way they cant offend some one they know?
ballswreck - March 2nd, 2011 at 2:55 PM
Testing 123
Headache - March 2nd, 2011 at 3:13 PM
RULE 718 - PROTESTS:
Protests must be in writing and handed to the tournament director within thirty (30) minutes of the completion of the
squad in which the infringement occurred. No verbal protests will be accepted.
RULE 719 - SPECIAL MATTERS:
The Tournament Committee will decide any matters, which arise and are not covered herein
Protests must be in writing and handed to the tournament director within thirty (30) minutes of the completion of the
squad in which the infringement occurred. No verbal protests will be accepted.
RULE 719 - SPECIAL MATTERS:
The Tournament Committee will decide any matters, which arise and are not covered herein
Ian Klein - March 2nd, 2011 at 3:38 PM
I totally agree that to progress this there need to be an official protest lodged either against the Tournament committee or directly to TBNZ. (There is provision for this in the TBNZ touranment rules). Complaining and whining amongst ourselves is destructive and creates a downward spiral.
So, Someone, everyone, or anyone of you above who obviously feels aggrieved should put it in writing and lodge the protest.
Lets get this out in the open and resolved.
If no-one is prepared to do this then let it go.
Cheers
Ian Klein
So, Someone, everyone, or anyone of you above who obviously feels aggrieved should put it in writing and lodge the protest.
Lets get this out in the open and resolved.
If no-one is prepared to do this then let it go.
Cheers
Ian Klein
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Danny Jamieson - March 3rd, 2011 at 12:47 AM
Well said...I completely concur.
SpareMe10 - March 2nd, 2011 at 5:20 PM
After reading all the blogs and replies, I agree with Ian Klein that this has gone way out of control and it WILL not solve any or all of the issues that cropped up with the running of the WELLINGTON OPEN. I feel that the replies coming from some are out of frustration and anger with what was written and in anger, not a lot of thought process have gone into the replies.
The frustrations of the bowlers are understandable as there were valid points brought up which should not go unanswered, but I strongly feel that it's the wrong people answering them.
As Ian mentioned, make the issues be known to the the right people to get the right answers.
As for some of the issues brought up, I have to agree and disagree with some of them:
Inaccuracies of bowler's names - while I agree that mistakes have been made, the bowlers concerned should have approached the staff or officials on duty to correct the mistakes there and then, but if this is a TBNZ ranked tournament, the mistakes should have been rectified by now if TBNZ is to do a proper ranking for the bowlers concerned, with their full and correct names.
I agree with Opinionated Bowler's reply to Ken's blog about this being only a '3rd tier event'. That comment has implied that the bowlers who supported the Wellington Open doesn't mean a lot in terms of prestige. That I find is rude to the bowlers. It doesn't make it less prestigious in my book, and should be treated as such.
I can understand that sometimes when replies come out of frustration and anger, people don't think it through but just write what comes to mind and that is understandable but it will usually come back to bite you!
Everything boils over when things happen but in the end, it will all be forgotten in time to come, as with most things.
I can see that most of the blogs written by the bowlers or readers were out of frustration more than anything else, and the replies were more out of anger.
It's time to move on as I'm sure most of the New Zealand community have heard about this (including TBNZ) Whether there will be repercussions or not, Wellington bowling still has to move on and learn from it. The bowlers have learnt a lesson and I hope the centres have too and everyone can move on from here.
By the way Jane, I doubt that anyone here have forgotten about CHC. Everyone has done what they could and contributed in their own ways to raise funds for TBNZ members down in CHC so to bring that up was a bit sad.
Just like the earthquake, this rumbling we feel here will go on and off, we don't have to pin point where the epicentre is, but we can feel it and I think that's more important than where it came from, don't you think?
The frustrations of the bowlers are understandable as there were valid points brought up which should not go unanswered, but I strongly feel that it's the wrong people answering them.
As Ian mentioned, make the issues be known to the the right people to get the right answers.
As for some of the issues brought up, I have to agree and disagree with some of them:
Inaccuracies of bowler's names - while I agree that mistakes have been made, the bowlers concerned should have approached the staff or officials on duty to correct the mistakes there and then, but if this is a TBNZ ranked tournament, the mistakes should have been rectified by now if TBNZ is to do a proper ranking for the bowlers concerned, with their full and correct names.
I agree with Opinionated Bowler's reply to Ken's blog about this being only a '3rd tier event'. That comment has implied that the bowlers who supported the Wellington Open doesn't mean a lot in terms of prestige. That I find is rude to the bowlers. It doesn't make it less prestigious in my book, and should be treated as such.
I can understand that sometimes when replies come out of frustration and anger, people don't think it through but just write what comes to mind and that is understandable but it will usually come back to bite you!
Everything boils over when things happen but in the end, it will all be forgotten in time to come, as with most things.
I can see that most of the blogs written by the bowlers or readers were out of frustration more than anything else, and the replies were more out of anger.
It's time to move on as I'm sure most of the New Zealand community have heard about this (including TBNZ) Whether there will be repercussions or not, Wellington bowling still has to move on and learn from it. The bowlers have learnt a lesson and I hope the centres have too and everyone can move on from here.
By the way Jane, I doubt that anyone here have forgotten about CHC. Everyone has done what they could and contributed in their own ways to raise funds for TBNZ members down in CHC so to bring that up was a bit sad.
Just like the earthquake, this rumbling we feel here will go on and off, we don't have to pin point where the epicentre is, but we can feel it and I think that's more important than where it came from, don't you think?
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Danny Jamieson - March 3rd, 2011 at 1:19 AM
Much of the stuff that is going on at the moment clearly illustrates to me the dangers of a blog / forum such as this. Yes, it provides a service to those who feel as though they cannot approach people directly but it also allows comments to be taken out of context. I do not believe that Ken was degrading the value of a tier 3 event with regards to the importance to the bowler or the centre. Nor was I accusing Boyce of anything untoward with regards to the publishing of comments such as this. Yet, both were taken out of context with regards to their intent.
Yes, I hope that all of the NZ tenpin community has heard about this. And that is one of the reasons why I got involved and stirred it up. I wanted to show people how destructive this type of medium can be. We need to find a better way and, as mentioned in an earlier post, I will propose my opinion and then see where it goes. If it flies, great. If not...at least I tried.
Yes, I hope that all of the NZ tenpin community has heard about this. And that is one of the reasons why I got involved and stirred it up. I wanted to show people how destructive this type of medium can be. We need to find a better way and, as mentioned in an earlier post, I will propose my opinion and then see where it goes. If it flies, great. If not...at least I tried.
ken powe - March 2nd, 2011 at 5:36 PM
Who moderates the moderator? Where is my last comment?
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ballswreck - March 2nd, 2011 at 5:57 PM
As i have said before. NOTHING HAS BEEN BLOCKED. If your comment did not appear please resend it. Ian has done so. Wayne been informed. I have run a testing after receiving query from them about the internet connection this morning. It looks ok now. This is a hot site. Must have been oveloaded. My sincerely apology if I missed something. But I DID NOT BLOCK ANY POST. I went through all the messages received. If it does comes through late, I will still post it.
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Danny Jamieson - March 2nd, 2011 at 9:49 PM
Boyce, what I think is happening is that periodically the submission process for the form times out or stops which is why it looks as though some posts are not be published. The post is subsequently lost when it is submitted again and this happened to me yesterday. As a result, I am now writing my posts in something else (e.g., MS Word) and copying the finished post into this form. That way, if something does go wrong, I will still have the content.
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ballswreck - March 2nd, 2011 at 10:27 PM
That seemed to be the best solution Danny. Save it on MS Word then do a copy and paste on the reply. The same recommendation also came from the others. Ta.
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ballswreck - March 2nd, 2011 at 10:29 PM
There is an ulterior motive for you to make this post. I see it now. I just got a txt from Porirua. Thanks Mr Ken Powe for setting a BoycesBlogSux on a private facebook.
ken powe - March 3rd, 2011 at 1:32 AM
Its a free country and people should be able to voice their own opinions on their own forum if they want. Isn't that what you are promoting? I stand by my claim on facebook that this blog has done more to damage to Ten pin bowling in Wellington than anything or anyone I have seen in 15 years of bowling.
In fairness to you though I have made the group public and renamed it kens wellington news.
I do not have an ulterior motive.
Definition. a motive, object or aim beyond that which is avowed"" I have been completely open in my thoughts and opinions on this blog.
please make sure you know the definitions of the words otherwise things can be misconstrued.
In fairness to you though I have made the group public and renamed it kens wellington news.
I do not have an ulterior motive.
Definition. a motive, object or aim beyond that which is avowed"" I have been completely open in my thoughts and opinions on this blog.
please make sure you know the definitions of the words otherwise things can be misconstrued.
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Switzerland - March 3rd, 2011 at 2:51 AM
Why bother doing that in the first place? You would just continue the spiral of anger and frustration which clearly everyone has stated is not the place where we should be headed. Besides where is this group? Did you delete it?
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ballswreck - March 3rd, 2011 at 4:45 PM
A sensible mature response. What is said, is said. Oh I am on dial up now, cos you bloggers suck up all my broadband usage. So be patience if the response time to your blog posting is delayed. My apology.
Danny Jamieson - March 4th, 2011 at 5:33 PM
I have developed a proposal in my head and have started developing the ideas in a written form. It does ask for changes from a number of people and rather than dropping it on them in this forum, I will continue to develop it and speak to them directly when I return to Wellington from family business at the end of next week (i.e., practice what I preach and speak to people directly).
Apologies and thank you for your patience.
Apologies and thank you for your patience.
Danny Jamieson - March 5th, 2011 at 3:44 PM
Unfortunately the person concerned has politely declined my invitation of a face to face chat, and I will not publish my thoughts here without speaking to them. So, unfortunately it is time to say "adieu" and I wish you all the best. To those who have shown a willingness for constructive debate, I thank you. To the others, well...
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ballswreck - March 5th, 2011 at 4:36 PM
The end of the journey. Its Sunday, so I shall take a quote from Ecclesiates Chapter 1 verses 17 and 18. "And I gave my heart to know wisdom, and to know madness and folly; I perceived that this also is vexation of spirit" v18. "For in much wisdom is much grief; and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow" In God we seek peace and forgiveness. Thank you Readers.
Bowlemover - March 7th, 2011 at 6:30 AM
Well, having read all of the above, the debate is about the Tournament Director NOT a personal attack on Dion so the letter from Wayne Booth is way off the mark and Danny you have once again managed to make us all feel that WE are in the wrong whereas the entry form, the wrong decions by the T D etc etc are what is to blame here. This IS an open forum and we should be able to vent our feelings without being attacked every time. Let's get on with it but let's hope Dion can take constructive critisism and not make the same mistakes next year. Kens comment about being ONLY a 3rd tier event has not helped nor is the fact that he made a bad move starting way off comments on a private face book and you should not behave like that being a face of the Centre at Porirua. Your claim Ken that this blog has done more to damage to Ten pin bowling in Wellington than anything or anyone I have seen in 15 years of bowling is nonsence. Danny, you do not help matters when you are so vocally domineering although you do not see this sort of thing as that which is sad. I am unhappy that we have got to this and think some of you are just shooting the messenger. I obviousy do not know "Boyce" as you all seem to but I enjoy the website as it is most informative and looks good, perhaps WCBA could brighten theirs up and give us more information if they want our support.
abowlingnewby - March 9th, 2011 at 5:25 AM
I am a newby to tournaments here in Wellington region and enjoying them. I am wading through all the rules, regulations, must do’s must not do’s locally and nationally but a couple of things are confusing me. The National Rules on eligibility says one must be a member of TBNZ OR affiliated Tenpin Bowling Association BUT the WCBA eligibility says all trialists need to WCBA members.
I am also confused as to why a female member who removed themselves from a team was able to come back in when another member removed themselves. Surely the Management should have invited the next qualifying bowler to join the team or the next
Or the next if previous bowlers were not now available. If someone could answer me that would be great and also how would I become involved workwise.
I am also confused as to why a female member who removed themselves from a team was able to come back in when another member removed themselves. Surely the Management should have invited the next qualifying bowler to join the team or the next
Or the next if previous bowlers were not now available. If someone could answer me that would be great and also how would I become involved workwise.
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Ally Haynes - March 9th, 2011 at 4:02 PM
Hey newby, I am the manager of Wellington Kapiti-Mana team, If you would like some answers about the player be invited back then drop me an email at ally070772@hotmail.co.uk.
Great to see you want to support the team, we need more people like you.
Look forward to hearing from you.
Great to see you want to support the team, we need more people like you.
Look forward to hearing from you.
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ballswreck - March 9th, 2011 at 5:03 PM
Here is a bit of boring history. In 2001 Bowland Competitive Bowlers Association(BCBA) was formed. In 2003 BCBA changed its name to Wellington Competitive Bowlers Association. WCBA became an incorporated society.
In 2004, NZ Tenpin Bowling Congress as NZTBC is defunct. 30th June, the inactivate Go Bowling Union Sports Society Incorporated (25th August 2000) changed its name to Tenpin Bowling New Zealand Incorporated. In October, an open meeting was held in Hamilton on the governance of TBNZ instigated by Fred Whichelow (CHCH). Craig Nevatt was the 1st Chairman. He is still the CEO of TBNZ. He is the foundation of TBNZ.
In Easter 2005, TBNZ held the 1st National Teams Championship at Porirua based on Australia - Rachuig format. Earlier on in April 2004, the ABPA invited NZ Bowling Proprietors to join and form as the 9th Zone - New Zealand Zone. Hence, NZ Zone Australasian Bowling Proprietors Assn (NZZABPA).
In 2006 eligibility of Team members must be a financial member of TBNZ or affiliated regional Tenpin Bowling association. Hence WCBA involvement. WCBA requires bowlers that made the team to be a financial member. As for the female bowlers issue please contact Ally Haynes. She is more than happy to give you a reply. Refer to her blog.
In 2004, NZ Tenpin Bowling Congress as NZTBC is defunct. 30th June, the inactivate Go Bowling Union Sports Society Incorporated (25th August 2000) changed its name to Tenpin Bowling New Zealand Incorporated. In October, an open meeting was held in Hamilton on the governance of TBNZ instigated by Fred Whichelow (CHCH). Craig Nevatt was the 1st Chairman. He is still the CEO of TBNZ. He is the foundation of TBNZ.
In Easter 2005, TBNZ held the 1st National Teams Championship at Porirua based on Australia - Rachuig format. Earlier on in April 2004, the ABPA invited NZ Bowling Proprietors to join and form as the 9th Zone - New Zealand Zone. Hence, NZ Zone Australasian Bowling Proprietors Assn (NZZABPA).
In 2006 eligibility of Team members must be a financial member of TBNZ or affiliated regional Tenpin Bowling association. Hence WCBA involvement. WCBA requires bowlers that made the team to be a financial member. As for the female bowlers issue please contact Ally Haynes. She is more than happy to give you a reply. Refer to her blog.
7-10Sucks - March 9th, 2011 at 3:39 PM
All good questions. I'm sure once you've done a lot of tournaments in all the centres in Wellington region as well as aound New Zealand, it'll open your eyes to things you may not like but that's life.
The eligibility of triallists that they need to be a WCBA member is understandable as the Association is the one that puts through all the funding application for the Wellington regional teams to the NTC.
Regarding the other issue you've raised, I think I know who you are refering to and I know some people are not happy about the situation but unless you are the one that is next in line, we can't really question the team management's decision can we? Nothing in the rules of the trials states that you can't be invited back if you've pull out in the first place so I think the decision lies with the management and the team. To make it easier for you to understand, there are a lot of things happening that seems illogical and contradictory to the rules but it happens not only in Wellington but everywhere, even up in Auckland! The thing to remember is most will bend or change the rules to suit themselves and if no one puts in a formal complain, nothing can or will be done and that's a fact. So it's up to you bowlers to stand up to them.
By the way, if you want to make a difference, attend the WCBA AGM this Sunday at Bowlarama Newtown and have your say. YOU might make a difference!
The eligibility of triallists that they need to be a WCBA member is understandable as the Association is the one that puts through all the funding application for the Wellington regional teams to the NTC.
Regarding the other issue you've raised, I think I know who you are refering to and I know some people are not happy about the situation but unless you are the one that is next in line, we can't really question the team management's decision can we? Nothing in the rules of the trials states that you can't be invited back if you've pull out in the first place so I think the decision lies with the management and the team. To make it easier for you to understand, there are a lot of things happening that seems illogical and contradictory to the rules but it happens not only in Wellington but everywhere, even up in Auckland! The thing to remember is most will bend or change the rules to suit themselves and if no one puts in a formal complain, nothing can or will be done and that's a fact. So it's up to you bowlers to stand up to them.
By the way, if you want to make a difference, attend the WCBA AGM this Sunday at Bowlarama Newtown and have your say. YOU might make a difference!
abowlingnewby - March 11th, 2011 at 2:45 PM
Thanks sucks. That makes it all clearer and I will contact Ally. As far as funding goes, yes I have been told how this works so my next question is why was no funding received this year for either teams??? I will attend the AGM but I have tickets for the cricket so I will have to divide my time.
Ian Klein - March 12th, 2011 at 3:30 AM
Where does all this mis-information come from. The WCBA have applied for and where successfull with $5,000 plus GST to be shared between the two teams for accomodation. $2875.00 each team. We have also applied for and been declined twice already for the Entry fees for both teams. This has been applied for again and we should know by early April if we are successful or not. Funding is now very dificult to get get as there are over $6 of requests for every $1 of pokie machine revenue.
James - March 18th, 2011 at 6:04 PM
Blimey, Crickey, lordy, lordy, LORD...just back from 3 weeks travel for work and I am gobsmacked with the amount of stuff on here...a blogs a blog...simple as that...everyone is entitled to their opinion, right or wrong...informed or mis-informed...I am not an Elite-Bowler, but a league bowler who dabbles in humiliating myself in tournaments, bar one! I bowl for fun, I bowl because i enjoy nearly all the people I bowl against, with, teammates, competitors and because i have always felt very welcome in EACH Wellington centre...Newtown, Porirua, Kapiti and Lower Hutt. Things very often don't go perfectly, but as long as we learn from our mistakes, aim to make each event better, then surely that is the aim...thats all i have to say.... I am a bowler and I enjoy bowling...isn't that the real issue...putting the fun into the game, the edge in the tourni's and the socially competitiveness of the leagues!!...Thanks James /Little Britain USA/Newtown/Porirua....
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